“Can one use a dragon to light a candle on Shabbat” and other important questions

[swan_tower]

My husband, to me: "You probably want to see this." <sets his laptop down in front of me>

Me: <reads the best tumblr conversation I've seen possibly ever in my life>

Seriously -- “Can I use my pet dragon to light candles on Shabbat?” is an actual debate religious leaders would have to have in Isabella's world. Because they have dragons, and a sizable percentage of Anthiope is Segulist (i.e. Jewish), so that scenario is a thing that could actually happen. Probably has. And now I'm regretting that I'm not conversant enough with Judaism to write a short story that is entirely about Segulist magisters arguing over something like using a pet dragon to light a candle on I don't think I ever came up with a replacement term for Shabbat (it would run from sunset on Eromer to sunset on Cromer, i.e. Friday-Saturday, but there ought to be another word for it). I had enough trouble writing "The Gospel of Nachash"; this would be harder, especially since I don't think I can ethically yoink the things people said in that Tumblr thread for my own commercial purposes, and figuring out how to turn it all into a workable story would require me to go beyond what's there into the wilds of stuff I don't even know enough about to ask the right questions.

<wanders away from half-finished blog post for a while, thinking>

<comes back>

Okay, screw it. We're doing this thing.

And I do mean "we," because I am actively soliciting ideas from people who know Judaism better than I do, that you're willing to let me use to write a Lady Trent story about religious debates concerning the proper role of dragons in pious Segulist life. I have no idea what form this is going to take; right now in my head it reads like a "Dear Abby" column, with some magister who is here for all your dragon-related religious queries, but it would be hard to give that enough shape to pass for a short story rather than just a novelty piece. Really, I can't plan the story itself until I know what material it's going to be built around, because that will probably suggest to me a context for why and how and of whom the questions are being asked.

So toss me some suggestions, people. Other than using a dragon to light a candle on Shabbat (probably a sparkling or a Puian fire-lizard; I don't recommend desert drakes for the purpose), what other questions might come up? I know enough about kosher laws to be pretty sure dragon meat does not qualify, assuming you would even want to eat it, which you probably would not. After that, I don't know what would be interesting to consider. Any thoughts?

Comments

[evil_plotbunny]

If you were to post this request on tumblr, I'd be happy to direct it towards the Jewish tumblr community where it will happily get picked up, dissected, argued over, etc. Alternately, I'd also suggest you dig through the comments on the various branchings of that post. As I recall this got discussed in more detail than the version you reblogged with interesting digressions.

This whole topic is a favorite of the jumblr (Jewish Tumblr) community.

[swan_tower]

I don't have a Tumblr account because I find it the most profoundly unintuitive social media service to navigate that I have ever seen; even finding this version of the post (which is more or less the one my husband showed me, but he saw it as a screencap on Facebook) required me to fiddle with my Google search terms, because trying to find my way down the conversational thread from the original, earlier-form post I turned up via Tumblr itself made me want to rip my hair out.

So I'd be grateful if you signal-boosted this to the Jewish community there -- maybe linking to the original Wordpress post if it's annoying for non-DW users to comment here. But I'm not keen on signing up for Tumblr.

[evil_plotbunny]

I completely understand. I mostly deal with tumblr by never trying to find anything ever and just looking at what the people I follow reblog or post.

I'll reblog that post with a link to the wordpress post tonight and drop a link to that here so you can monitor the responses.

[swan_tower]

I seriously don't get why Tumblr is so abysmally designed. For a while I thought that maybe people with accounts got access to better navigation tools (which would still be stupid, because then your service looks unusable to anybody who's contemplating signing up), but . . . apparently not.

[evil_plotbunny]

There are third party tools to make it more usable, but tbh complaining about the interface has become a time honored tradition.

I've passed along your request. Here's hoping you get enough material for a short story.

[batwrangler]

Thank you so much for sharing the tumblr post.

<3

[ladybird97]

That is AMAZING and I would read the heck out of this story!

A couple ideas:
- There's a genre of Jewish religious literature in which rabbis answer questions about halacha - if you're thinking of an epistolary or Q&A format, this might give you some inspiration: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_responsa_in_Judaism

- have you seen this book? According to the authors, dragons are not kosher. Neither are jackalopes.

[swan_tower]

I have that book around here . . . somewhere. <peers vaguely at bookshelves> :-)

And yeah, I'm -- I won't say "familiar" with that genre, because that implies I'm well-read in it or something, which I most definitely am not. But I encountered it when working on "The Gospel of Nachash," and it's part of why a Q&A format leapt to mind. Not sure if I'll go that route for the story or not; it has its pros and its cons.

[ladybird97]

Excellent! I figured that there was a good chance you'd know both of those things already, but just in case you didn't, I thought they'd be really helpful.

This story idea is awesome and I'm really looking forward to seeing it!

[swan_tower]

No guarantees that it will get written . . . but I'm at least going to try!

[ashnistrike]

To caveat all the following, I'm Reform, and tend to spend my Saturdays catching up on errands.

Straightforward answer: In strict interpretations of Judaism, neither you nor your animals may work, with lighting a fire particularly called out as a forbidden activity. So definitely not.

Less straightforward answer: I didn't know this before looking it up, but apparently the categories of forbidden labor are related to those (presumed to be) used to build the Tabernacle in the wilderness. So minor differences in origin myth between Judaism and Segulism might propagate into different forbidden activities.

In addition, the Torah sometimes makes specific exceptions to general rules around animals. For example, while the general set of laws around Kashrut exclude insects, there's an explicit exception for insects with long hind legs for jumping--presumably because if there are locusts available to eat, there are probably no other good options! I can imagine fire-breathing being specifically called out as something that doesn't constitute work, since it's generally something dragons do for their own benefit rather than ours--in which case, if you happen to have trained your dragon to light candles, and there happen to be candles sitting around, you wouldn't be making your sparkling labor if it happened to light them. I suspect that holding it in position, or telling it to do so, or rewarding it for doing so, would still be right out, unless the not!Torah explicitly says otherwise.

Now I'm curious what role dragons play spiritually for Segulists. Are there associations between animals that are able to produce fire at any time and the sacred lamps that are never permitted to go out? With the bush that burns but isn't consumed (or its equivalent)?

This is amazing and I'd love to help

[jabenami]

This seems spot on, especially the point about a different evolution of Shabbat (if you want to go that way).
I would definitely try to play out the implications of lighting candles -
If your dragon lights a candle on Shabbat, can you stay in the room and benefit from the light or should you leave the room? Ought a pious person put away all candles before Shabbat just in case? If you train your dragon to light candles, can they be the source of the flame on which you make the blessing?

Additional dragon questions - what status do dragons have in Segulist law? Are they just like other animals or different? In the Temple religions, is there any tradition of dragons lighting the fire for the sacrifices or incense. What's the relationship between dragons and ritual purity? The purity laws would be a fascinating space to take this.

Err...not sure what else, but I'd be delighted to attempt to answer any questions you might have. I'm a first year rabbinical student so I could use the practice!

Re: This is amazing and I'd love to help

[swan_tower]

Thanks for the input! I'd be delighted to pick your brain some more, if you don't object.

The purity laws would be a fascinating space to take this.

I don't know what to say to this other than "tell me more!" As I said in the reply to ashnistrike, I'd love to find a non-candle, non-dietary bit of Jewish law that would apply interestingly to dragons, but I'm not even sure what that might be.

Re: This is amazing and I'd love to help

[jabenami]

Okay, so...
(And I apologize if this is all information you know; one of the downsides of the internet is it's hard to know when you are explaining research to an author who has already done it.)
One of the things that struck me about Segulism versus Judaism is that Segulism never needed to cope with the destruction of the Temple while the Temple was an integral feature of the religion. For obvious reasons, I tend to think in Jewish terms so the Magisterial/Temple split maps less (in my brain) on to the Protestant Reformation and more onto Sadducee/Pharisee split of the first century. The Rabbinic (i.e. Pharisaic) interpretation of that split is that the Sadducees didn't believe in the authority of the rabbis, but it's a bit more complicated. The Sadducees were, arguably, more interested in Judaism as a Temple religion whose main binary was Pure/Impure, while the Pharisees were more interested in a communal religion whose main binary was permitted/forbidden. My spouse, who teaches Jewish history, notes that the Sadducees probably didn't actually keep the purity laws very well, but they would have said that the core principles of Judaism that they were honoring in the breach were the rules of the Temple and the laws of who was pure, what was pure, what made something worthy to be a Temple sacrifice, etc. Namely, a religion of priests rather than rabbis. (This is, I am informed by said spouse, still a gross oversimplification and also ignores the degree to which the Sadducees dismissed the oral traditions of the Pharisees.)

For example, according to Jewish Law, accidentally violating the Sabbath is a sin and one is required to bring a sin offering in restitution. Is the important part figuring out what constitutes a violation and the laws of the Sabbath or is the important part the sin offering? And, if one can't bring the offering, can one repent and try to do better anyway or is one's forgiveness bound up in the capacity to bring an offering in the Temple? Rabbinic Judaism believes the former, while the Sadducees would focus on the latter.

The Rabbis win because the Temple is destroyed, which makes it rather hard to run a religion based on Temple worship. However, in your world where the Temple was never actually destroyed and where Segulism evolved, to what degree would the laws of purity have remained a crucial part of practice? And would there be a Magisterial/Temple split on matters of purity, like you have in book 1 with Isabella needing to go to the ritual baths to be purified and being totally unfamiliar with the experience.

So here is what I think the main question would be: Are dead dragons impure?
The Torah says that some bugs and creepy-crawlies are impure. Does that extend to dragons?
Dead dragons are complicated because--on the one hand, they may be like bugs and lizards (all the things that creep upon the earth) and those transmit impurity when they are dead. Or maybe they are more like humans because of the Draconeans--and the most impure thing in the world is a corpse. Or maybe dragons are considered birds because everything that flies and isn't an insect is, as far as Jewish law is concerned, a bird. (Bats are halachically birds. It's weird.)

So, question one - do dead dragons transmit impurity and, if someone comes into contact with one, must they undergo a purification process? Given that dragonbone disintegrates, maybe only an intact bone transmits impurity and so maybe there's suddenly this major problem with the preservation process.
Question two - if so, can a pious Segulist ride in a dragonbone caeliger?
Question three - does synthetic dragonsbone have the same legal status as real dragonbone? (In contemporary actual Jewish terms, does lab-grown meat count as meat when it comes to mixing it with milk? Authorities are divided on the topic, but we may be seeing kosher cheeseburgers in the near future.)

On a related note regarding the Draconeans - Jewish law has a complicated relationship with Egypt and there are laws about returning to Egypt and setting up a community there. Since the parallel to the Exodus in Segulism seems to involve Draconeans, what kind of issues might come up now that they exist again? Also, depending on whether Segulism is as touchy about idolatry as Judaism is, is Draconean worship idolatry and how does that change when there are actual Draconeans around?

I'm not sure how much of this runs contrary to elements of the world building that I either don't remember or don't know, but I hope this helps as a jumping-off point and, of course, I'd be happy to answer any more questions.

Re: This is amazing and I'd love to help

[swan_tower]

Thank you so much! No need to apologize for explaining things; my knowledge of any given religion is very patchwork, so that on the one hand I'm ignorant of basic concepts and on the other I go "oh, yes, that totally obscure thing; of course I know about it." :-P

the Magisterial/Temple split maps less (in my brain) on to the Protestant Reformation and more onto Sadducee/Pharisee split of the first century

That's fair. When I liken it to Protestant vs. Catholic, I mean more its historical/political role -- i.e. a big upheaval that over a period of centuries divided Europe/Anthiope and led to various wars of religion, etc. (With a side order of moving away from a model of centralized religious authority, toward something much more distributed.) Theologically, no, there isn't much comparison to Protestantism or Catholicism.

For example, according to Jewish Law, accidentally violating the Sabbath is a sin and one is required to bring a sin offering in restitution. Is the important part figuring out what constitutes a violation and the laws of the Sabbath or is the important part the sin offering? And, if one can't bring the offering, can one repent and try to do better anyway or is one's forgiveness bound up in the capacity to bring an offering in the Temple? Rabbinic Judaism believes the former, while the Sadducees would focus on the latter.

These details never fit into the story, but what you're saying here touches on some of the thoughts I had along the way about how the Temple-based form of the religion adapted to covering a large enough geographical area that journeying to the Temple stopped being really feasible for a lot of adherents. (It mostly shows up in the form of the tabernacle in Drustanev having a constantly-burning oil lamp whose flame was lit from the sacred fire in the Temple, and the choice of the word "tabernacle" for such places.)

So here is what I think the main question would be: Are dead dragons impure?
The Torah says that some bugs and creepy-crawlies are impure. Does that extend to dragons?
Dead dragons are complicated because--on the one hand, they may be like bugs and lizards (all the things that creep upon the earth) and those transmit impurity when they are dead. Or maybe they are more like humans because of the Draconeans--and the most impure thing in the world is a corpse. Or maybe dragons are considered birds because everything that flies and isn't an insect is, as far as Jewish law is concerned, a bird. (Bats are halachically birds. It's weird.)

Hmmm, that's interesting. Taxonomically, dragons are more related to lizards than to birds -- but scientific taxonomy and traditional categories sometimes have bugger-all to do with one another, as seen in your bat example. (Or in Japanese, where the word you use to count birds is also used for . . . rabbits.)

And then that runs right back into the taxonomy question, because I say in the first novel that sparklings used to be classified as insects (which, if that's a religious classification, means those are definitely impure when dead), but on the other hand you have the "true dragon" question where only some things that are taxonomically dragons are capable of flight -- so would those be counted as birds, and the flightless kind not? But the Segulist categories would probably be based on the draconic creatures native to southern Anthiope, not taking into account the types found elsewhere.

. . . at least, not taking them into account originally. I imagine that particular argument started a long time ago, when Segulists started going "but what about wolf-drakes" and "but what about swamp-wyrms" and "but what about wyverns." So as of the present day in the story, there would already be a body of texts hashing out how to classify other draconic creatures vis-a-vis Segulist notions of impurity, and whether flight is a sufficient basis for saying that some dragons are halachically birds and others are lizards or bugs. Yes? And then new discussions when the Draconeans are discovered to be both real and alive, because that opens up a whole new can of worms, what with the human-level intelligence and so forth.

So, question one - do dead dragons transmit impurity and, if someone comes into contact with one, must they undergo a purification process? Given that dragonbone disintegrates, maybe only an intact bone transmits impurity and so maybe there's suddenly this major problem with the preservation process.
Question two - if so, can a pious Segulist ride in a dragonbone caeliger?
Question three - does synthetic dragonsbone have the same legal status as real dragonbone? (In contemporary actual Jewish terms, does lab-grown meat count as meat when it comes to mixing it with milk? Authorities are divided on the topic, but we may be seeing kosher cheeseburgers in the near future.)

Yesssss, this is exactly the kind of thing I was hoping to turn up! Bone preservation and synthesis are a very suitable monkey wrench to throw into the whole thing; that's the kind of question I can build a story around.

It seems to me that question one would be a known quantity by Isabella's day, because of the aforementioned discussions working out how dragons should be classified. Is there any source you can point me at that will give me a good overview of the ideas surrounding that in the real world? I can probably come up with justification for classifying dragons into a whole bunch of different categories, so from a narrative perspective, it's a matter of figuring out which answer would create the most interesting setup for the story. (Birds? Lizards? Something else? Segulist categories might not be identical to Jewish ones, just built along similar lines.)

Question two seems like it will probably be answered "no," because if there's no impurity anywhere along the line then there probably isn't a story. On the other hand, I might find a hook on which to hang a possible argument that the preservation process purifies the material somehow (e.g. are fossilized bones still considered to be impure, or does the fact that they've been permineralized mean they count as stone now instead of dead matter?)

Question three is where things get really interesting. Do you have any links or book titles I can take a look at to see what things the authorities say in each direction?

And thank you so much! This is incredibly helpful.

[swan_tower]

Sorry for not responding sooner -- I had to drop this to work on something else. But now I'm picking it back up again, and thank you for the reply!

Now I'm curious what role dragons play spiritually for Segulists. Are there associations between animals that are able to produce fire at any time and the sacred lamps that are never permitted to go out? With the bush that burns but isn't consumed (or its equivalent)?

Oooh, interesting question! Desert drakes are the only properly fire-breathing species (with sparklings it's just little sparks; ditto fire lizards, with bigger sparks), and they're native to the region, so . . . hmmm, that's interesting. Do I think Segulism would be more likely to see that fire as sacred/good, or less? I think I have a comment in Labyrinth about jinn being supposedly born from the breath of a desert drake.

Overall, what I'm hoping to find -- and have no idea how to look for -- is some other place where dragons and Jewish law might be seen as intersecting. The candle-lighting question is one such instance, and the kashrut-vs-not question is another, but are there others? Anything to do with death, maybe, with the bones dissolving? Somebody suggested on the WP comment thread that the dissolving might run into laws regarding magic, but I don't know enough to guess at what that might be.