more thoughts on fanfic

[swan_tower]

I'm sure many of you have stopped going back to check my earlier post on fanfic for new comments, if you ever did so at all, so I thought I'd a) mention that the discussion is still going on there, and b) start a new post.

The reason for the new post is that my thoughts have had some time to compost, or marinate, or whatever the metaphor I want is, and I think I can articulate some things now that I couldn't before. Most particularly, a few things I found myself saying to ancientwisdom over there.

There's a difference between saying to someone, "have you thought about writing original fiction?" and saying "why don't you write REAL fiction, instead of wasting your time with that fanfic rubbish?" Some people say the latter. Some people say the former, but really mean the latter. But some of us say the former and mean it: our intention is to express admiration of the writer, and to invite/encourage them to try something new. (The analogy this was built on is asking a LARPer if they've considered trying out for a play, as opposed to asking why they waste time with LARPing instead of real theatre. Nothing wrong with the former question, as far as I'm concerned, and they can always respond, "thanks, not interested.")

The problem I'm seeing of late is an increasing tendency of people in the fanfic community to assume I mean the latter, insulting question when I ask the former: the presumption of condescension and patronization where there is none. This automatically casts me in a role I resent (because it isn't true). I'm capable of acknowledging, thank you, that fanfic can be well-written, that it can be a valid use of one's time, that one may engage in fanfic writing for reasons which do not translate over the divide into original fiction, and therefore that one might not be interested in writing original fiction. But can I please be permitted to ask?

And here's why I want to ask: I want to feel like these two communities can talk to each other. Right now, a lot of times I'm made to feel that I can play in my sandbox over here (professional fiction), and you can play in your sandbox over there (fanfiction), and if I want to I can come join you in your sandbox, but I may not invite you over to mine. The traffic, if there is any, must be one-way, and any attempt to make it two-way is an insult on my part.

But, you ask, isn't it two-way anyway? Nothing's stopping somebody from deciding to write original fiction. While this is true, it's true only up to a point, because there are barriers to writing original fiction that don't exist in fanfic. Or, to put it in other terms, original fiction intimidates people in a way fanfic doesn't. Perhaps most prominently, it's less immediately rewarding. Instead of posting something online and garnering positive comments in a short span of time (yay egoboo!), you put it in the mail, wait months, and then get back a form rejection letter (no egoboo for you!). And this will happen a lot. Even Jay Lake, a wildly successful short story writer by anybody's standards, has a 25% sell rate for his submissions; his stories garner an average of three rejections before selling. That gets depressing, folks, especially when you aren't Jay Lake, and a story may get rejected twenty times or more before finding a home.

Which is why mentoring is a big part of the spec-fic community, whether it's organized formally or just through friendships. People bootstrap each other up into the industry with technical advice (here's how to write a cover letter), market tips (hey, that looks like a good story for City Slab), critique (okay, you've got a good idea here, but you need to rework it from the ground up), networking (I recommended you to a woman putting together an anthology), lessons in rejectomancy (JJA said it "didn't work" for him; that's great!) and general hand-holding and reassurance when that twentieth rejection letter for the same story arrives. Absent that, this is a depressing life and often an opaque one, and so new writers may not even give it a shot if somebody doesn't encourage them to do so.

And so we try to pay it forward. I mentored someone through AbsyntheMuse, an online program aimed at teens. A published novelist friend sat with me at World Fantasy and listened to me bitch about a situation I didn't feel comfortable mentioning publicly. Folks on the Rumor Mill trade information about markets constantly. We try to help each other succeed.

To our eyes -- temporarily assuming here the authority to speak for, well, the entire professional writing community, at least those of us who aren't jerks about fanfic -- there are probably people in the fanfic world who would write original fiction, if they were encouraged to do so. If they had somebody to help them over a few of the barriers. And we want to read that original fiction, we want to see other people succeed in our world, and so we try to pay it forward to them. Not because we think there's something wrong with what they do, but because we think there are good things about what we do, even with all the pain and suffering along the way.

But more and more, it feels like we're not welcome to do that. Instead of being able to connect with the people who are interested in what we're offering, we run headfirst into the closed ranks of the people who want us to go away.

Offers of help don't have to be patronizing. The assumption that they are saddens me (or irritates me, depending on what I had for breakfast that day).

I guess what I'm arriving at is this: I have for several years now been nudging/encouragement/kicking kurayami_hime in the shins (yes, dear, I'm outing you a little bit; I'm running out of new forms of blackmail) because she made the mistake of telling me about a story idea she had in her head, and the idea sounded really cool, so I've been trying to get her to write it, because I want to read it. This is the same impulse I feel toward fanfic writers I try to encourage, though in their case it's usually an interest in their skills rather than a specific original story idea (unless they happen to tell me about an original story idea and it sounds good). I mean it as a compliment, and it implies no disapproval on my part. But whereas kurayami_hime usually looks a little flustered and guilty (because I keep pestering her about this on an irregular schedule, and haven't given up yet), lately the fanfic writers seem more offended than anything else, as if I must have something against who and what they are.

I don't. I just want to give them any assistance they might want or need. Because this sandbox over here can seem like hostile and unknown territory, otherwise.

And I wish it were possible for those of us trying to pay it forward to find those of them who might want to cross over, without evoking the specter of the elitists who spit on fanfic, or stepping on the toes of those who are happy in their sandbox and have no interest in going anywhere else.

Comments

[swan-tower.livejournal.com]

Congrats! I look forward to seeing it when it goes up. ^_^

Without meaning this as a negative judgment of fanfic culture, I think the immediate gratification it offers is one of the hurdles that holds back people who might otherwise try pro-fic. As far as I'm aware, the positive feedback on any given fic tends to vastly outweigh the negative (if the negative even shows up). That gets addictive, frankly. If you want to sell a story to a professional market, on the other hand, you can't post it online for instant feedback, and even if the editor buys it, they probably won't gush at you; they'll just send you a three-line e-mail saying they'll take it. So while all that egoboo serves a valuable purpose within the fanfic community, it may be actively detrimental to somebody looking to expand in a professional direction. Rave reviews don't help you much in that field; sometimes you need somebody to tell you that you suck.

[bakkhos.livejournal.com]

Speaking from personal experience, one of the fears a writer of original fic can experience is not knowing. Not knowing if what you've put your heart into for years is complete and utter garbage. Not knowing what others think of it (unless you have a critique group). Not knowing if you're wasting your time on fiction no one will see. Some say writing ought to be for the writer anyway, and that's true, to an extent. But I know one of the reasons I write is to move people, and if I'm putting all my energy into something that is not worth it--that will never see a bookstore shelf--then not only is my main goal incomplete, but I've wasted a part of my life.

Maybe I have the wrong motivation for writing.

[swan-tower.livejournal.com]

No, I'd say you have the right motivation. Writing just for yourself is wankery. <g>

Most writers, I think, thrive best in a careful mix of compliment and critique: enough positive feedback to keep you going, but not mindless praise, either. The people who can do fine on just one or the other are few and far between.

[moonandserpent.livejournal.com]

And what's wrong with wanking? By God, I....

*ahem*

You're definitely right about the addictive power of the egoboo. Man, I had time when I was feeling down and my answer was "Hey, I'll write that cool Marauders (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marauders_%28comics%29) story I've been thinking about." Because, you know... the feedback would be near instant and deeply gratifying and would probably cheer me up :)

$0.02

[lillornyn.livejournal.com]

I'd say there is no "right" motivation for writing, and as someone who writes strictly for myself, a comment like that sounds *terribly* elitist to me.

Your writing reaches a broad audience, touches a great many people, helps you pay the bills. My writing is a part of me that is *mine*, helps me work out issues that I'm uncomfortable talking about to others or posting online, and means a great deal when I am comfortable enough with someone to share it. How dare *anyone* tell me I'm wasting my time? Keep your values with you and off of me, thanksverymuch.

Note: Less referring to you specifically, Ms. Brennan (you seemed to be speaking in jest), and more in general - because jokes aside, that attitude certainly exists, and is part of the problem. Mostly I'm saying (as I think Kitsune has said in an earlier thread) I wish that the myriad reasons people write were accepted and not arranged in some sort of false hierarchy. I respect professional writers, the way they write, and their reasons for doing so -- why does that seem a one-way street?

Re: $0.02

[moonandserpent.livejournal.com]

Because by and large we operate in a culture that values things only in as much as that thing or pursuit can be made into a commodity. It is in fact, all about the Benjamins.

Re: $0.02

[dinpik.livejournal.com]

Yup. Money talks, bullshit walks. The only other type of 'payment' is acknowledgement by one's peers (Pulitzer, Nobel, Newberry awards) or by the community at large(for example, amateur astronomers get put in the books as discovering a new star or comet or whatever).

To be honest, a lot of fanfic writers and readers have the same 'commodity' mindset about fanfiction. Look at how many people complain about not getting as many reviews as they'd like, or why another genre of fic is more popular, or -- and this is a biggie -- "Why is everyone writing X/Y? Why can't I find more X/Z stories?!" A while back, there were even posts on metafandom about reviews and feedback being a type of 'payment' for writing. Recently there were discussions about whether or not fanfic writers should respond to comments; more than a few people had the "I read your story, bitch, so fucking thank me for it!" attitude.

Fanfic does have an economy; it's just not with real-world money. People are just going to have to deal.

Re: $0.02

[swan-tower.livejournal.com]

The existence of things like the social economy of fanfic is exactly why kitsunealyc and I presented an academic paper on how one could use anthropological methods to study fanfic communities. I think it's interesting, even if it's not something I want to make a research project of my own out of. (Part of the reason I don't want to do it myself is that I know I'd have a hard time separating my own personal judgment from my observations on many things. The "I read your story, bitch, so fucking thank me for it!" attitude would be a good example of such a case.)

Re: $0.02

[teleidoplex]

Yeah, I was going to bring up again the whole comparison to dance/music. These are activities that are allowed to be community-building and non-professional without the wankery value-judgement or the assumption that non-professionals aren't professionalizing because they're intimidated by the process of professionalization.

My favorite memories of faire are sitting around listening to jam sessions afterwards. None of the music played was original...and at least half of it was not public domain. Most of those musicians were not full-time professional musicians, though they would sometimes play paid-gigs (especially on St. Patrick's day). Some of them had recorded and released their own CD's (the equivalent of vanity publishing).

In music, this type of casual, fluid crossover between the two is more accepted, in part I think because musicians still view their work as both performative and communal. I don't get the feeling that pro-writers get together and share their writing just for the fun of doing so. Even writing groups and workshops are done with the aim of critique. I think fanfic writers are more apt to view writing as a performative activity (which carries with it an expectation of the immediate response and gratification, often positive, of the audience). The structure of the contemporary professional writing complex makes pro-writing less peformative. I think it's (again) condescending to view a writer's desire for performative acknowlegement ("egoboo") as something shameful or less admirable a motivation.

I'd also like to point out that general consensus in the fandoms I've participated in is that reviews come about 1:100 -- that is, one review for every 100 hits. It is also the case that most authors have one or more beta's, whose job it is to provide the constructive criticism that often is lacking in reviews. I've also noticed that about 1 in 5 of reviews I've received has some sort of constructive crit.

I've noticed some slight fluctuations in these trends, depending on the site, mostly correlating to the strength of community feeling (how responsible community members feel towards each other), and the maturity of the community members. I've noticed that people who author or are heavily involved in the community are more likely to review than non-authors and lurkers. I've noticed that over half of the reviews people receive tend to be "repeats", that is, people who have reviewed other stories or other chapters of the same story. One of the sites I frequent has an under-reviewed category, where you can go and read a fic that has statistically been under-reviewed compared to hits and length.

All this is to say that the other folks who've pointed out that this is more than just "egoboo", but is in fact a highly developed social economy are right on the money (heh), and that the social circles that are created are actually rather small and tight-knit.

Re: $0.02

[teleidoplex]

Oh, and also to point out that the way people approach performance is different than the way they approach...whatever pro-writing has become. I wouldn't go up to a dancer or singer or musician after a performance (either pro or non) and give constructive critique (even if I might have some). If I enjoyed the performance, I might go up to them and tell them what I liked, and I'd be more likely to do so in a non-pro situation.

Re: $0.02

[swan-tower.livejournal.com]

My use of the term "egoboo" isn't mean to be derogatory; I just like the word. (Try saying it out loud. Egoboo! Egoboo! It's fun.)

I'd divide things on a finer scale than you do. It isn't just music; it's particular instruments more than others. Noodling around on a guitar at a party will go over a lot better than doing the same on a tuba. That's probably the most socially-acceptable "hobby instrument" I can think of; violin and piano are in there, too, as might be a flute or tin whistle in a Celtic or folk music context. You could probably list more, but it does depend on the instrument, the genre of music, and the social context, which ones can be done casually and which ones can't. (Meaning "can" and "can't" in a social-perception sense, not an absolute one.)

Re: $0.02

[teleidoplex]

Gotcha. But at the same time, somebody who didn't know you well or was lurking on this conversation might not recognize that, or be willing to give you the benefit of the doubt when you explained (especially since egoboo is juxtaposed with wankery -- now *that's* a fun sentence to say!)

I think you're right on the fine-tuning of the music issue (heh!). I was going to talk about singing and karaoke except I didn't want to beat dead horses. I think the prejudice against karaoke makes the whole writing thing look life fluffy bunnies...but my perception may be skewed because I live with the fox).

Re: $0.02

[swan-tower.livejournal.com]

There's a reason I don't go to karaoke bars.

I prefer Japanese-style karaoke -- which you can do at Mr. Sushi in town, apparently, or now there's the console game -- where you get a private room with your friends, and therefore don't have to subject yourself to random drunk tone-deaf strangers. I freely admit that my elitism extends to my sense of pitch.

Welcome. Enjoy.

[moonandserpent.livejournal.com]

"Sushi Bar. Welcome. Enjoy."

Seriously, best damn time in town. Closed room Japanese-style Karaoke with sushi and booze. Joinnnnn uuuussssss.

Re: $0.02

[moonandserpent.livejournal.com]

"One of the sites I frequent has an under-reviewed category, where you can go and read a fic that has statistically been under-reviewed compared to hits and length."

That's a really neat feature. I wish some fo the sites I was involved in back in da day had that.

Re: $0.02

[swan-tower.livejournal.com]

In a non-exclusive sense ("a" right motivation in place of "the" right motivation), I think bakkhos is right for what she's seeking -- publication. Writing solely for oneself and trying to get published is unlikely to succeed (though in theory it could), because it has a high chance of coming off as something done solely for the writer's own pleasure, not anybody else's.

I think it's important to distinguish, though, between writing professionally and writing for an audience; they're not the same thing. I confess that I've always been somebody who writes for an audience. This remains true despite the fact that nobody read 95% of what I wrote from the age of whenever I first started putting things on the page until I was eighteen, and only a scattered person here and there ever read the stuff that did get shown, because in my mind, I was writing my way toward an eventual audience. For me, it's a form of communication. I could not be Emily Dickinson. No doubt this is why I never successfully kept a journal or diary for more than an entry or two until I started keeping one online; if I've got something deeply personal bothering me, I don't work it out by writing it down, so private writings never meant much to me. And it does mean, I'll admit, that writing fiction one never intends to show to anybody, with no intent of ever showing fiction to other people, is alien thinking to me.

It's true, though, that our culture has issues with hobbies. It's a topic I've chewed on more than once in my own head. I have a hard time figuring out what criteria determine which things I can do without an end goal in mind, and which I can't. I love sitting down at a piano with my iPod and noodling out how to play a song I'm listening to, but I haven't picked up my French horn since I stopped having an ensemble to play with and concerts to prepare for. I'll dance at parties, but "real" dance, choreographed dance, I need to be preparing for a performance. Some of it's culturally shaped (we accept some hobbies more readily than others), some of it's socially shaped (is it a solo thing, or do you need other people for that hobby?), and some of it's personal.

When it comes to writing and what one does with it, I guess my philosophy goes more like this: write for fun, absolutely, because if you're not having fun then why are you doing it? But if you're writing for fun, and what you're producing is good, why not try to sell it if you can? You might get something out of it that you didn't have before. I recognize that there are reasons someone might not want to sell their work, but I like to suggest it as a possibility.