a question for the Londoners
May. 7th, 2010 12:57 amIf you were to talk about where Pelham Crescent is in London, what district name would you use? Kensington? South Kensington? Is it close enough to count as part of Knightsbridge? (Not according to Wikipedia, but.) Or something else entirely?
It's a beast, trying to sort out the boundaries of intra-urban place-names for a city you don't live in. And for all I know the areas were defined a little differently in 1884, but that officially falls into category of "if you can prove me wrong, Dear Reader, then you bloody well deserve your victory."
It's a beast, trying to sort out the boundaries of intra-urban place-names for a city you don't live in. And for all I know the areas were defined a little differently in 1884, but that officially falls into category of "if you can prove me wrong, Dear Reader, then you bloody well deserve your victory."
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Date: 2010-05-07 08:08 am (UTC)With time, I might be able to track down the description from the 1881 census if that would help.
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Date: 2010-05-07 08:14 am (UTC)(I really need to be rescued from myself. I just said I was sad because I can't dig through a foreign census to verify whether a particular street was officially counted as part of South Kensington a hundred and thirty years ago.)
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Date: 2010-05-07 08:42 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-05-07 08:57 am (UTC)But I won't say no . . . .
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Date: 2010-05-07 02:57 pm (UTC)I wonder if Brompton mightn't be what you're looking for...
This may be of interest http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=50011
South Kensington is the answer
Date: 2010-05-07 03:57 pm (UTC)Charles Dickens (Jr.), Dickens's Dictionary of London, 1879
from http://www.victorianlondon.org/dickens/dickens-bic.htm
[I now consider this cat thoroughly vacuumed...]
Re: South Kensington is the answer
Date: 2010-05-07 07:52 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-05-07 09:20 am (UTC)In terms of geography, Kensington is a little higher up, towards Kensington High Street, and Chelsea is a little lower down (towards Kings' Road). So it's in that uncomfy area where the two ex-districts overlap.
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Date: 2010-05-07 07:51 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-05-07 04:43 pm (UTC)I'm trying to sort out the 15 parishes of Porto. You would think there would be a map (in English) somewhere for this sort of thing...but I can't seem to find one.
And the only ones I've found in Portuguese either don't have streets...or don't show the boundary lines.
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Date: 2010-05-07 07:50 pm (UTC)My sympathies! But I'm glad to know I'm not the only one doing this kind of thing. :-)
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Date: 2010-05-07 08:01 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-05-07 07:26 pm (UTC)(And if you really want to know, I could even tell you who lived in the 27 houses in the Crescent in 1882 - except no.15, on the corner of Pelham Place, which was unoccupied...)
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Date: 2010-05-07 07:35 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-05-07 07:55 pm (UTC)On the other hand, if you have a floor plan, I'd be all over that. ^_^ (Tried searching online, but the closest I came was lists of rooms; too many of those buildings have been carved up into flats, or remodeled into open plans, etc.)
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Date: 2010-05-07 10:57 pm (UTC)According to Pevsner, these are "Some of the most exquisite domestic architecture in London from this transitional phase from prim Georgian to bold High Victorian." (So in 1884 they would have been seen as rather plain and old-fashioned.)
Brompton developed as an extension of Knightsbridge in the early part of the C19; the success of the Great Exhibition, and the development of the museums and academic area, brought South Kensington up to the social level of Mayfair, and over the next 20 years the whole area was filled with buildings.
There was not a great deal of variation in the plan of terrace town houses: you can tell something just from the Google pictures. The grand entrance, up four shallow steps to add dignity, with a separate servants'/ tradesmen's entrance down the area steps to the basement - two entrances being an absolutely critical feature of social segregation, replicated even in much more humble houses than these. The kitchen and scullery would have been in the basement, with the wash-tub for boiling the laundry, and probably a wine-cellar. It is possible that a servant slept in the basement, though I'd expect them to have bedrooms in the attic, and these houses may just have been grand enough to allow for a small servants' staircase as well as the main one. The ground floor plan would probably have had the drawing-room at the front and the dining-room at the rear, with a small entrance hall and the main staircase. In the eastern part of the Crescent (nos 2-12), the rooms are on the right as you enter the front door; in the western part (nos 17-26) they are on the left of the door. The end houses (1,13,16,27) are slightly larger - 3 bays rather than 2, and nos 14 and 15, on the corner of Pelham Place, are detached houses of three full bays. It's difficult to see how there could have been more than two principal bedrooms on the first floor of the terrace houses - the one at the front occupying the whole width of the house, with both windows - but perhaps on the second floor there might be more, smaller, bedrooms. No bathroom at this period, but there may have been a WC on at least the first floor.
Looking at the census returns, these houses seem to have been occupied mainly by single families, some by widows with their children. Some households include other relatives, such as mothers or sisters. Typically there might be two servants (cook and housemaid); if the family included young children there might be a nursemaid as well. Only one house in the crescent boasts a butler (his wife being the housekeeper). A number of the heads of household are described as "gentleman" or "lady"; there was also a barrister, a retired East India merchant, a retired admiralty civil servant, the Secretary of the Conservative Club, the manageress of the Strand Theatre, a couple of actresses, and a policeman (and all these with a couple of servants apiece): but two of the houses would seem to be let as lodgings in 1881.
The RIBA Library (in the V&A Museum, London) has the contract drawings for Pelham Crescent and Pelham Place; I don't know if these include full plans.
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Date: 2010-05-07 11:04 pm (UTC)If you have any recommendations for a more cutting-edge address, I'd welcome them. The family in question is very nouveau riche, emphasis on riche, and determined to be as respectable as they can get; for various reasons I'm not sticking them in Mayfair or Belgravia, but would like them to be in the most modern and expensive house they could get in South Ken. (They've only got one daughter still at home, but a fairly substantial array of servants.)
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Date: 2010-05-08 11:29 pm (UTC)The 1870s saw something of a reaction, with the first buildings in what became known as the "Queen Anne" style - red brick with Dutch Renaissance detailing. This was initially favoured only by individual clients, especially those with advanced artistic ideas; it was more widely adopted by developers in the 1880s. Norman Shaw, Philip Webb and their followers were the leading architects here.
My instinct therefore is that you're looking for a grand house, probably in a rather over-blown version of the High Victorian Italianate style, rather than "Queen Anne".
I am not a Londoner, and I wouldn't claim to know the Kensington area well. My first thought would be the Queen's Gate area, which had been developed from 1855 to 1870 with "expensive town houses with opulent facades". Certainly it would seem to be sufficiently up-market, with lords, baronets, MPs, senior military officers and the like as well as those with no title but presumably rather a lot of money.
Picking a few addresses on Queen's Gate, we have at no.79 a General with his wife and three young daughters, and nine servants (butler, footman, coachman, groom, cook, kitchen maid, housemaid and two nurses); at no.76 a banker with his wife and five children, with six servants; at no.74 a barrister with his wife and six servants; at no.85 a solicitor with his sister and six servants (butler, footman, cook, lady's maid, kitchenmaid, housemaid). Typically these were terrace houses of five stories plus attic and basement, three bays wide, with a grand pillared porch and Italianate details.
However, I think I'd need to do more research before suggesting that this is appropriate.
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Date: 2010-05-10 12:31 am (UTC)