panel, take two

[swan_tower]

This past weekend I was on the following panel at WFC:

Urban Fantasy—Beyond the Usual Suspects
It seems as if most urban fantasy uses the familiar European myths. What other possibilities are there? Which authors have successfully exploited them?

A number of us had grievances with the direction the panel ended up going in, so I'm officially hosting Take Two right here. We hammered the "cultural appropriation" angle to death -- again -- so I'm not looking to hash that one out. Instead, here are some of the things I wanted to talk about and didn't really get to. I'll put my questions up front, then my personal views behind a cut (for length); feel free to respond to the questions and/or pose your own in the comments.

1) What are the benefits of going outside "the familiar European myths"? What do we gain, as writers or readers, by looking to other parts of the world?

2) What are the downsides? Aside from the issue of appropriation, what drawbacks or challenges result from going further afield?

3) I posited briefly in the panel that you can imagine a spectrum, ranging from American Gods-style globalized, multicultural cross-over, to setting-specific approaches that firmly ground the supernatural and mundane elements in a locality. Benefits and drawbacks? Preferences, and if so, why?

4) Who has done this well? What other cultures do they draw on, and why do you say they're done well?

5) Who's done it badly? Even if you don't want to name names, what kinds of mistakes bug you?

6) If we're moving away from European sources, where are we moving to? (We touched on this briefly at the end of the panel, but I'd like to discuss it in more detail.)



1) It's hard to find a way to phrase this that doesn't sound like I'm fetishizing the exotic, but I want something different, dammit. There are other modes of belief, other ways of viewing the world, other ways of creating symbolic meaning, than just those originating in Western Europe. I think it's good for me to seek out that kind of mental flexibility, rather than resting comfortably in my defaults.

2) You may not get your readers to follow you. The names and terms will be unfamiliar; the concepts may be hard to grasp, or even repugnant. I'm working on some Mesoamerican-styled fantasy in short stories right now because it's alien enough that I'm not sure I could get a reader to stick with me the length of a novel. (I don't think Marella Sands' books sold terribly well.) But if I push the envelope a bit on a shorter scale, hopefully I'll make some headway toward it.

Also, the more unfamiliar something is, the harder it will probably be to research it. I can get my hands on a book about British faerie lore by sticking my hand blindly on a shelf at a bookstore; if I want to talk about sub-Saharan Africa, my task will be harder.

3) As much as I like the globalizing approach, I would dearly love to see more localized urban fantasies set in other parts of the world. Of course, the difficulty there is that you probably need to live in a city, or at least give it an intensive visit, to represent it fairly and plausibly. But I'd gladly shell out money for an Indian urban fantasy set in Mumbai, or a Japanese one in Kyoto, or a Kenyan one in Nairobi. Don't just rip the interesting concept out and stick it in America; leave it there and show me what role it could play in modern life at home.

4) and 5) Honestly, I'll leave these for other people to answer. I haven't read a broad enough range of urban fantasy to have a list at hand. The most I can really say is that I was disappointed Lukyanenko's Night Watch et al used such generic supernatural creatures, and that I really need to find the time to read fellow panelist Ekaterina Sedia's A Secret History of Moscow, which I have suspected for months now is exactly the antidote I'm looking for.

6) China and Japan. I don't think these trends operate independently of what's going on more broadly in our lives; as those countries continue to grow in importance to American pop culture (as I think they will), I expect we'll see more Asian-based urban fantasy, specifically those countries. After that? I don't know, but my money and hope would be India. Especially since it's got such a high percentage of English speakers. A good urban fantasy based on Indian materials could, I imagine, sell like hotcakes, and I'd buy one in a heartbeat.

I'd love to see more African/Caribbean material, but I fear the political tensions surrounding such books here in America mean I won't really see it happen any time soon.

Pitch in. We don't have a time limit here; we can go as long as we like.

Comments

[shveta-thakrar.livejournal.com]

I'm working on an Indian-based novel set in Philadelphia. I know you said that for your part, you'd rather see such a story set in India, but I think it's interesting to explore the culture from an ABCD's point of view. Growing up here, how important is it? How does being in America affect the protagonist and the fey creatures involved?

As for the others you mentioned, I'd love to see them, too!

[swan-tower.livejournal.com]

That's interesting too, of course. I think I'm so interested in seeing them set in other countries, though, because if they're all set in America then it creates this weird impression that nowhere else in the world has cities. (Or at least cities with magical things in them.)

. . . ABCD? It just occurred to me that I have no idea what that one means.

[annemariewrites.livejournal.com]

I'm terribly sorry I missed this panel! The topic is right up my folklore lovin' alley.

1. As readers, we gain everything. Culture. Language. Myths and legends unknown to us. (Though, obviously, only in pieces. Not enough to make us fluent or experts.) As writers, we could be the trend setters that pave the way for more stories from non-European cultures.
   
   
2. The flip side, as I see it, is more complicated. As readers, we risk reading something too foreign, and then never reading anything in that genre again. (This doesn't describe me -- I read ketchup labels -- but there are picky readers.) As writers, we could lose everything. If it's too far afield of the current trend, we run the risk of never finding publication. Unless, of course, we already have a publication track record. Then, we might risk our reputations. I'm not sure on that last bit as A) I've read everything certain authors have written even though quality has declined and B) I'm unpublished.
   
   
3. I'd prefer to see more American folklore novels. Not European mixes that traveled over here with some of our ancestors. I wrote a novel that mixes Native American stories and cultures into an urban American setting. It was the book that *I* wanted to read, so I'd like to read more of those kinds of stories. However, being the folklore junkie that I am, I'd read anything from Icelandic sagas to Thai dramas. Right now, I'd read anything *but* European-style tales.
   
   
4. For a long time, all I was reading was YA urban fantasy. Most of them are euro-centric, so it's hard to remember what other books have done this well, or even at all. There are quite a few short stories in both The Faery Reel and The Coyote Road that explore other cultural beliefs and settings. So, that's a start. The cultures, I recall, were Chinese and Japanese. I think they worked well because they didn't use too many foreign terms or get bogged down by different belief systems, but, I suppose, more importantly the writers were good at what they did/do. The characters, setting, etc. were believable and real.
   
   
5. I'm not sure I have enough reading in the specified genre to answer this one way or another.
   
   
6. I'd have to agree that both China and Japan seem to be trendy right now. Again, though, I'd like to read something American-centric. North, Middle, or South American would suffice. I live here and want to know more about what came before the Europeans. However, like you, I'd enjoy a good Indian story. They've got some really great folk tales and all of the religions are rife with beautiful and poignant stories. South Pacific tales would be great too. Russian lore is largely untapped and amazing in its own way. Okay, let me be honest, I'd read anything that mentioned folklore, mythology, or culture. It's my kink. ;)

That's all from me. I can't wait to read other responses!

[swan-tower.livejournal.com]

It isn't just reputation a writer risks; if I put out a Polynesian urban fantasy and nobody bought it, then I'd have a damn hard time selling my next book.

Native American material, like African/Caribbean, carries a freight of political tension. Some American Indian groups don't mind it if you do your research and get things right; it came up in the panel that the Diné (Navajo) generally approve of Tony Hillerman's work. Others don't want outsiders touching their cultures with a hundred-mile pole. I agree with you that I'd like to see more, because it would help counteract the general erasure of American Indians from America, but it's problematic.

(Note: I'm using the term "American Indian" because, according at least to a comment by Joseph Bruchac on another panel, mostly that's the term they prefer. I'm not about to assume that's true of every American Indian/Native American/First American/pick your term, but if I can offend fewer people by changing my word choice, I will.)

[blindmouse.livejournal.com]

Just a courtesy note that I've friended you. Am an entirely random passer-by, but I read the pitch for Doppelganger somewhere a couple weeks ago, and found it rattling around in my head; I love to see a premise where the conflict is set up between the protagonists, rather than introducing a less likable antagonist to fight. Doesn't seem to be distributed in Australia, though, so am not a reader.

Making an attempt to be slightly on topic: the best example of Who has done this well? I can think of is Ruth Manley's The Plumb Rain Scroll, which is children's fantasy set in legendary ancient Japan, and using Japanese folklore. I haven't read it in years, but she did an awesome job of making the material accessible and fascinating to an Anglo kid with no background knowledge.

Coming from the other direction, I would say that the Fullmetal Alchemist manga is a rather good example of a Japanese writer incorporating Western culture and mythology into Japanese to make a world that feels new and different in either context.

[swan-tower.livejournal.com]

My publisher is planning on reissuing those two books next August, which may very well include a proper UK distribution, so perhaps some copies will make their way to your part of the world. (Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think Australia is usually in the UK distribution sphere.)

I've heard interesting things about Fullmetal Alchemist, but never had the time to check it out myself.

[dsgood.livejournal.com]

I have a suspicion that there are people in India who could write good urban fantasy set in their own cities -- but they're setting their fiction in exotic places like Detroit.

[david-de-beer.livejournal.com]

yup, most probably. I followed part of the online Filipino SF debate, and afew of them remarked on this (they seemed rather amused overall), that while western readers and writers had an increasing hunger for non-western settings and tropes, they in turn had in increasing hunger for western tropes.

apart from that (the "exotic" not being all that exotic to the people living there"), there's also practical issues for most writers - set your story in the US, if you're writing in English, because most English readers live in the US.

[fivemack.livejournal.com]

If you want the ambience, read Vikram Chandra's _Sacred Games_ or Vikram Seth's _A Suitable Boy_; there's a lot there, and I'm not sure what more you'd get from having a wonderful invocation of India and an avatar of Ganesh.

[swan-tower.livejournal.com]

I wish I could remember what Vandana Singh said about Indian fantasy (=fantasy written in India, rather than fantasy written about India), but at this point I'm afraid it's been too long and I've forgotten most of it. I don't remember getting the impression that Indian writers were setting their stories in Detroit, though.

Honestly, I hope not. Because America isn't the only place worth writing about.

[mrissa.livejournal.com]

Aww, crap, B., did you have to do this to me?

Because I started thinking: so. Cities have different ethnic mixes. Here in Mpls, we have a lot of Scandos (including Finns and Saami -- and enough Scandos around that Saami have partially separate ethnic identity!), Germans, Somalis, and Hmong. And more Mexicans and other Latin American ethnicities and more Russians and Ukrainians than we did ten years ago. Different cities are going to have a different mix -- every once in a great while I'd see typically Hmong features on someone on BART and think, "Oh, honey, you should go back home where you belong," meaning my home, Minneapolis, not the hills of Southeast Asia.

So what I want out of this is non-generic Anycity, USA, multicultural settings, as though everybody has the same number of Caribbean immigrants. I want the people who are setting their contemporary fantasies in Detroit to set them in Detroit with the cultural mix it has now. War for the Oaks was fine when Emma wrote it, but it's pretty clearly historical urban fantasy now: not enough of the new myths. Not enough story cloths. Not enough women in really bright headscarves over their parkas. Not enough next door neighbors who will mutter that the main character is a bruja to the blonde who nods in agreement and makes the hex sign I was taught, surreptitiously.

And this doesn't dodge the cultural appropriation debate -- except it does a little bit, because Minneapolis is my culture, and that includes the bits of things that aren't my ancestry. Any New Yorker should be able to tell you that much.

And now I'm thinking, well, damn, if you want a thing done....

[swan-tower.livejournal.com]

ehe hee hee hee hee I mean oh I'm so terribly sorry. <tries and fails to look penitent>

You're right, of course. You can get a nice powerful sense of place with the globalized approach, too, if you pay attention to the actual mix present in a given city, rather than tossing in a few token Hispanics and blacks and Asians and leaving it at that. More people should do so.

[kblincoln.livejournal.com]

I just had an agent write on their rejection "There just isn't a market for Japanese fantasy right now." I'd submitted a YA Contemporary fantasy set in Tokyo with a Japanese girl protagonist.

Do you think the agent is clueless? Or is it possible that the hunger for multi-cultural fantasy mostly comes from other writers? I wonder sometimes if the hunger for (particularly) Japan related stuff isn't limited to a form people know already-manga and anime.

[swan-tower.livejournal.com]

I don't think the wave has quite hit yet, but I suspect we're seeing the front edges of it. And this isn't to say I expect Japanese urban fantasy to outsell the usual European stuff; just that I think there is/could be/will be a market for it, as Japanese pop culture achieves greater diffusion in America. And a smart editor who picked up a good Japanese urban fantasy and figured out how to market it to the manga crowd could make bank.

So I don't think the agent is clueless so much as not forward-thinking enough.

[eclectician.livejournal.com]

I'm not sure what parameters a narrative might need to meet to qualify for inclusion here, but thought I'd point out that:

a. there's quite a bit of urban fantasy anime / manga out there - Vampire Princess Miyu and Death Note are the two I've most recently run across.

b. Are you talking about urban fantasy as a genre that specifically draws on folkloric elements? Because there's a great deal of stuff that gets shelved under "literature" - all the magical realist stuff - that has fantastical elements and a localized setting, though I'm not sure how localized the magical elements are. Frex, Murakami is pretty non-specific and non-folkloric, but certainly fantastic.

c. I mentioned your issue with Lukyanenko's stuff to D, and she started trying to think about Russian folkloric / fantasy elements that could have been incorporated. The short answer she came up with is that Baba Yaga sort of kind of appears in Twilight Watch (but how specific is the witch in the woods, anyway?) and more to the point - it would be hard to write an urban fantasy in Russia because so much of the folklore is based on rural spaces and nature spirits.

[swan-tower.livejournal.com]

We honestly didn't start out by defining "urban fantasy" -- which I was fine with, because that might have meant we spent the entire panel chasing our definitional tails, instead of beating the cold dead corpse of cultural appropriation. But given the context, I think our primary focus is on the established sub-genre in novels. Which is not to say there isn't interesting stuff going on in manga and magical realism and so on.

it would be hard to write an urban fantasy in Russia because so much of the folklore is based on rural spaces and nature spirits.

Like European folklore isn't? Emma Bull stuck a glaistig in a fountain, a sidhe in a rock band, and a phouka on a couch. That isn't exactly their natural habitat. We're used to it now, but there was a certain mental shift that happened along the line as we worked to imagine how rural European critters might get incorporated into the modern world.

And that, I think, is part of why I want to see more non-European stuff: to escape the implication that the beliefs and legends of Other People (especially Brown People) are somehow backward and not relevant to the current day.

[diatryma.livejournal.com]

My brain is not sorted into questions just now. Rambly!

I think a major of non-standard urban fantasy is that it is nonstandard. I know faerie stories. I know selkies and under the hill. I know dragons. And part of urban fantasy is *changing* those, so the selkies are no longer just seal women without their skins (one could argue that this hasn't happened with selkies, but it's the first one to pop into my head). Dragons aren't unilaterally evil lizards with flamethrowers. The reader gets to see traditional folklore in a new light, and this is informed by everything already known about the traditional folklore. We know The Little Mermaid in some form, we know the sirens, we know general mermaidlike things, so urban fantasy generally puts mermaids in the sewers, forces them into Arizona for perfectly valid mermaid reasons, and gives them strange, nonmermaid relationships with the two-footed ones.
And unfamiliar folktales don't have the same impact. If you write a story about a Mesoamerican creature, I'm not going to come at it with the same Disneyfied baggage. At least some stories have to be written in the traditional way to give me grounding for when urban fantasy subverts the tropes.
Sometimes it seems like authors get around this by using equivalents-- they want a water spirit, but they don't want the traditional European, so they have to use something close enough to what we know that the fact that it's *not* standard Celtic mythology gives it an edge. Which is not exactly what I want to say. There are Russian water spirits (Catherynne Valente has her "Urchins, While Swimming" and that *works*), Irish water spirits, water spirits all over the place, so you can write a story without necessarily having to delineate what makes *this* water spirit different from all *those*-- they're all similar enough. Which makes me wonder what would happen if you have just the same water spirits everywhere, instead of defining them so strictly. If you write a mermaid that's indistinguishable from the standard mermaid, but it's actually Polynesian, how does that change the story, the feel of sources, the diversity?

On a personal level, if source-mixing isn't done well, it pisses me right the hell off. CE Murphy's Urban Shaman, while fun, bugged me; the main character has a mix of Irish and Native American magics, and it didn't feel natural to me. The mix was contrived. A lot of times, it seems like there's the Irish, there's the Native American, and there's *nothing else*, nothing in the middle, no immigration, nothing. Old World vs New World, often working together. De Lint does this a lot, and it doesn't always work.
And the trickster is *always* Coyote.

[swan-tower.livejournal.com]

It's true that you're playing a different game with the reader if you aren't both coming to the table with a shared understanding of the trope. That's why, I think, my only really successful flash fiction has all been riffing on familiar fairy tales or other sources. But you can still make something out of re-imagining them in an urban context -- your mermaids in the Arizona sewers -- it just means you might have to work a little harder on communicating your starting point to your reader. (Generic "you," not specific "you.")

[squirrel-monkey.livejournal.com]

Hey! Some disjointed thoughts:

It's not even the westernness of the tropes, it's their sameness. Seriously, does the world need another vampire/werewolf book? Meanwhile both western European and American traditions have much untapped potential -- alchemy, the occult, all sorts of folksy magic (basically, what Paul Jessup describes as post-industrial fantasy).

American Gods -- I mentioned this book because it attempts to deal meaningfully with immigration. This is of interest to me, because I'm writing an immigrant book right now -- takes place in NJ; this particular trope allows one to write about culture without pretending to speak for this culture.

OK, enough for now. I'll ay more as I verbalize it.

[swan-tower.livejournal.com]

I'm convinced the world doesn't have more alchemical fantasy because alchemists deliberately tried not to communicate their ideas and theories to other people, at least not in print and/or comprehensible form, which makes familiarizing oneself with it damned hard.

Not that I'm speaking from experience or anything. <g>

Anyway, yes, it isn't so much the western-ness as the familiarity. But I would say the familiarity goes beyond the surface; sure, there's the western occult, but I think many of the basic ideas there have permeated fantasy (urban and otherwise) pretty thoroughly, so that even if you used that as your focus instead of vampires, it wouldn't feel all that terribly new. (For certain types of the occult, of course. If you gave me hard-core John Dee Christian kabbalism, that would be new.)

re: immigration -- see Mrissa's comment above. Go tell her to write that book. ^_^

[kate_nepveu]

As a reader, something non-familiar gets my attention in good and bad ways: good because *different* and therefore interesting, bad because I'm on the alert for something offensive--especially because there's often a disconnect between how things are packaged and how they really are, and the packaging could make it look worse than it is.

I also have a slight preference for localized stuff, whether real or fictional, because I like worldbuilding and I'm not afraid to say so.

Finally, I have a big long thing recommending _Fullmetal Alchemist_ => : http://kate-nepveu.livejournal.com/136826.html

[swan-tower.livejournal.com]

I like worldbuilding, too, which is why Celtic/Norse/medieval stuff rarely draws my eye anymore. I'm already familiar with those worlds, often moreso than the writer is. And you can usually convey a better sense of world if you focus on a limited area, rather than giving me a big (and usually vague) canvas.

[sora-blue.livejournal.com]

Question re #6

Are we writing Japanese people in Kyoto or Westerners? Because those are two distinctly different stories.

[swan-tower.livejournal.com]

Do I have to choose? <g> I'm interested in seeing the supernatural be Japanese. Certainly there are westerners in Kyoto, and might be included in such a story (particularly if it helps the reader enter into the unfamiliar), but I sincerely hope there are, y'know, actual Japanese people in it too, or I'll be much taken aback.

[jenncatt.livejournal.com]

Just out of interest, and slightly off at a tangent, I'm curious why no-one really seems to be doing UK-set urban fantasy recently... At least, I haven't seen any so far.
China Mieville's King Rat springs to mind (although it's a tad more edgy than the genre tends to be at the mo) and at a pinch I think Neil Gaiman's Neverwhere fits, but they were both several years ago.
Kit Whitfield's Bareback/Benighted was more recent, but very careful to be vague about even what country it was set in. Yep, it did feel quite British but was also more dystopian than urban fantasy.
I noticed Simon R Green has a series going that looks like London-set UF, but it seems odd that no UK female authors are following the trend considering how well the US genre authors are doing over here (well, I seem to own several shelf-fulls, lol!).
Or am I missing something?

[swan-tower.livejournal.com]

Or am I missing something?

Me! <g> (I don't know if you're new to FFF, so I have no idea whether you've seen me talking about Midnight Never Come over there.) At this point I'm set up for an entire series of London-based urban fantasies, though they're all historical. Of course, I'm a US writer, not a UK one. But anyway, yeah -- the boom seems to be much more American than British.

[lankywriter.livejournal.com]

I'm all for mixing it up; European folklore, middle eastern, asian, western, etc. Considering we're a multicultural, multi-racial society, it makes perfect sense. We communicate globally more than ever, so it seems obvious that our fantasy stories, particularly urban fantasy, should do the same. As a reader and a writer, it's what I expect.

Not all fantasy races, regardless of their origin, are created equal anyway. Authors have their own ways of portraying the fantastical folk in their stories. Hamilton's fairies are nothing like Marr's. Butcher's vampires are totally diffferent from Rice's. Harrison's pixies are very distinguishable from de Franco's. So no matter where the supernatural entity comes from initially, their inventors use full creative license to mold them into what their stories need.

There's so much that can be done with, say, Russian or Japanese or Celtic mythology that could connect them to what readers may find more recognizable. If you stand back and look at the creation myths, you can see how it all stems from the same place anyway.

Originality is key, IMO, but you can take the familiar and turn it on its ear to get a new perspective, and maybe that's where another country's folklore comes in. I just think when you're talking fantasy, you're looking at universal appeal to readers who go for that beyond the veil experience no matter where that veil is.

As far as setting, I'm guessing the more American-centric it is, the better its acceptance among American readers. The story most certainly doesn't have to stay in the US or Canada. The author has the power to be tour guide for the reader who wants to travel with their American MC to far away lands. But they may need their hand held by an American character who knows her/his way around. Could be a comfort zone thing. I'm just theorizing here.

[swan-tower.livejournal.com]

An American character can serve the same narrative function as the person from this world suddenly ending up in another world: they don't know any of that stuff, so the reader can learn about it along with them. But it's an easy device to overuse, and since the main character is also generally the character who Gets Stuff Done, there's a danger of the story making it look like the furriners need a white person to save them. (Unfortunately, given our genre at the moment, that American probably would be white.)

[mirrorred-star.livejournal.com]

By looking at other places, we gain a broader view of the world and a better idea of the mindset of other cultures.

Holly Lisle's Talyn had really fleshed out non-European cultures, their mindset, and just everything (however, they're not based on any existing culture, either) I've read the trilogy of the Otori chronicles as well (as in, everything but the last two released) I think I just love being dunked straight into an unfamiliar culture. As far as UF goes, no idea. I haven't read a great deal of UF, so even succubi and were-cats are a new concept as far as I go.

I'd love to see more Chinese and Japanese based fantasy, urban or trad. Urban would be awesome. Especially Urban like you suggested, set outside the English-speaking West (though I have yet to hear of urban set in New Zealand or anything :) ). The globalised approach could be interesting as well, but that has the potential to end up as 'Odd creatures in Western context'. Admittedly, I haven't read American Gods, so I don't know how well or otherwise this approach works.

[blindmouse.livejournal.com]

though I have yet to hear of urban set in New Zealand or anything :)

Margaret Mahy's The Changeover would qualify for New Zealand YA urban fantasy :-) Probably some of her other work, too.

[strangerian.livejournal.com]

One writer I recall using non-European elements is, oddly enough, Mercedes Lackey in the Diana Tregarde books, something like 20 years ago. I read these in my jejune adolescence and I wouldn't be surprised to hear objective readers now say they're crude in the use of Aztec and pre-Aztec myths in Burning Water, and a memorable Korean ghost-demon in Children of the Night. Still (like her books with gay characters), they matter-of-factly brought those elements into the genre-est of genre literature without making a fuss, just doing it, and made the world a bit more open.

[swan-tower.livejournal.com]

I haven't gone back to re-read Burning Water, so I won't attempt to pass judgment on its use of Tezcatlipoca et al. But I'd like to see more of that, yes. I mean, how many Mexican immigrants are there in the US now? Let's pay attention to their stories!

[blackholly.livejournal.com]

Answering none of your questions, I just wanted to say that it was great to meet you at WFC.

[swan-tower.livejournal.com]

You too! Sorry we didn't get a chance to talk more.